He that departs from that that is a real engagement and a real tie upon him, I think he transgresses without faith; for faith will bear up men in every honest obligation, and God does expect from men the performance of every honest obligation. I cannot see but that we all speak to the same end, and the mistakes are only in the way. One of them, Henry Ireton, argued: "I think that no person hath a right to an interest or share in the disposing of the affairs of the kingdom, and indetermining or choosing those that determine what laws we shall be ruled by here - no person hath a right to this, that hath not a permanent fixed interest in this kingdom... First, the thing itself (universal suffrage) were dangerous if it were settled to destroy property. 'Tis upon the matter of safety that the real power of making laws is vested solely in the people by what hath been proposed. For my part I know nothing of fatal consequence in the relation of men but the want of love in it, and then, if difference arises, the sword must decide it. Ireton: I suppose no man will make a question that that may be justice and equity upon no constitution, which is not justice and equity upon a constitution. Wildman addressing Ireton: For the matter of stating the thing in difference, I think that the person of King and Lords are not so joined together by any; for as yourself said, none have any exception against the persons of the Lords or name of Lords. Ireton: That 's all that can be said. I think there needs no more. There was one thing spoken to this effect: that if the poor and those in low condition were given their birthright. And for my part I am against any such thought, and, as for yourselves, I wish you would not make the world believe that we are for anarchy. Yet whatsoever God shall employ us in, I could wish this were laid to heart by us : whereas we would be called the chosen and faithful that will follow Christ wheresoever he goes, let us tremble at the thought that we should be standing in a direct opposition against Jesus Christ in the work that he is about. Lieutenant-Colonel Goffe made an apology for what he had said before. I think that we are better as we are if it can be really proved that the poor shall choose many and still the people be in the same case, be over-voted still. But I would speak this word to the quickening of us to a good hope : I am verily persuaded if God carry us out to meet sincerely, as with free spirits to open ourselves before the Lord, we may not be found going on according to our will. ‘And if so,’ said he, ‘you will let it appear by coming unto us.’ We have gone thus far: we have had two or three meetings to declare and hold forth what it is we stand upon, the principles of unity and freedom. It gives the negative voice to the people, that no laws can be made without their consent. And I shall appeal to all men: whether the dividing from that General Council and from the resolution wherein we have all engaged that we would be concluded by the decisions of that Council, and whether likewise the endeavouring to draw the soldiers to run this way with them -- whether this is not the real dividing of the Army. I desire all those that are free from it in their spirits may act farther ; and those that think themselves bound up so to acquiesce in it, that they would be pleased to rest satisfied in the actions of other men that are at liberty to act for the peace and freedom of the kingdom. Ireton: If it comes to a breach of the peace it will come to break some law. First of all, on the one part, there is this apprehension: that we cannot with justice and righteousness at the present destroy, or go about to destroy, or take away, or altogether lay aside, both, or all the interest they have in the public affairs of the kingdom; and those that do so apprehend would strain something in point of security, would rather leave some hazard -- or at least, if they see that they may consist without any considerable hazard to the interest of the kingdom, do so far wish to preserve them. Now had it not been a fundamental law before the Conquest the Commons should not have been drawn up, but that they did drive up now to support the Lords is clear. We'll expose who wields ultimate power in the UK. meet, but you neither say where nor when. Covenants freely made, freely entered into, must be kept one with another. We sought to satisfy all men, and it was well; but in going about to do it we have dissatisfied all men. I should offer one word to this Council : I think it is in all our minds to deliver the kingdom ; if there be particular engagements we must lay them aside to lay down something for the public good. Upon what was spoken by one here, it was concluded by the LieutenantGeneral that that was not the mind of God that was spoken by him. No man says that you have a mind to anarchy, but that the consequence of this rule tends to anarchy, must end in anarchy; for where is there any bound or limit set if you take away this limit , that men that have no interest but the interest of breathing shall have no voice in elections? (Note: Lacking the proposals, one can only surmise the provision referred to. I speak but the words of the Agents, and I find this to be their thoughts. Further too: that we all apprehend danger from the person of the King and from the Lords -- I think we may go thus far farther, that all that have spoke have agreed in this too, though the gentleman in the window (The reference is to Allen, or to someone whose speech is un recorded). First we have insisted upon the fundamental rights of the people. And if they are unjust they should be broken, though I confess for my own part I am very tender of breaking an engagement when it concerns a particular person -- I think that a particular person ought rather to set down and lose than to break an engagement. LieutenantColonel John Jubbes: Truly I do not know how to distinguish whether the Spirit of God lives in me or no, but by mercy, love, and peace; and on the contrary whether the spirit of Antichrist lives in me, but by envy, malice, and war. For if I had said that I would not wish at all that we should have any enlargement of the bounds of those that are to be the electors, then you might have excepted against it. As one historian has pointed out: "They are perhaps the nearest we shall ever get to oral history of the seventeenth century and have that spontaneous quality of men speaking their minds about the things they hold dear, not for effect or for posterity, but to achieve immediate ends." Rainborough: He did tell you he would improve his interest, which is as full satisfaction to what Mr. Allen says, as could be. But I say that the principle that leads to this is destructive to property; for by the same reason that you will alter this Constitution merely that there's a greater Constitution by nature - by the same reason, by the law of nature, there is a greater liberty to the use of other men's goods which that property bars you." Colonel Robert Tichborne: I was speaking to this of the negative, I do remember, on Saturday last. This cameto a head with the famous debates between the Levellers and Cromwell atSt Mary s church in Putney, London. This constitution hath limited and determined it that only those shall have voices in elections. And thus we take leave of Putney, one of the pleasantest of the London suburbs, as well as the most accessible. But if that be true concerning the breaking of an unrighteous engagement, it is much more verified concerning engagements disputable whether they be righteous or unrighteous. Ireton: I desire not to speak of these things, but only to put things into an orderly way, which would lead to what the occasion is that hath brought these gentlemen hither that are now called in. Methought he said, if there be delay he fears this business will be determined, the propositions will be sent from the Parliament, and the Parliament and King agree, and so those gentlemen that were in that mind to go on in their way, will be cut off in point of time to their own disadvantage. Ireton: Will you decide it by the light of nature? I remember I spoke it, and I speak it again, and that this is the intent, I do verily believe: that the original sense and intention of the oath of the King's which is published in that declaration of the Commons was, and is, and ought to be, that the King ought to confirm those laws that the Commons choose. A man ought to be subject to a law, that did not give his consent, but with this reservation, that if this man do think himself unsatisfied to be subject to this law he may go into another kingdom. Bedfordshire Man: (Perhaps the Agent from Whalley's Regiment). ( This detached note is transposed from after Captain Allen's speech above. I know our debates are endless if we think to bring it to an issue this way. Truly, I conceive that according to what is there propounded the power of the House of Commons is much lessened -- from what it is of right, not from what it is now by usurpation of King and Lords. Rainborough: Sir, I see that it is impossible to have liberty but all property must be taken away. They are likewise appointed to send for those persons concerned in the paper. That ‘in a case of safety’ was provided for, in those matters that I have spoke of. May it please your Honour: I was desired by some of the Agents to accompany this paper, having manifested my approbation of it after I had heard it read several times. And secondly, that man hath an interest, hath a permanent interest there, upon which he may live, and live a freeman without dependence. I do verily believe they are so far from a disunion that they will be advised by this Council in general, or by any honest man of this Council in particular. Volenti non fit injuria. And therefore truly I think all the consideration is that. And I shall desire that those that conceive themselves bound up would desist, and satisfy themselves in that, and be no hindrances in that to hinder the people in a more perfect way than hath been yet endeavoured. And therefore I desire that, since this is in order to another meeting in the after- noon, we may lay down all at the feet of God, not following our own reasons, but submitting unto that light which is lighted in us by his Spirit. Sir, I think it's clear that every man that is to live under a Government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that Government; and I do think that the poorest man in England is … Truly, many things have engaged me, which, if I had not known they should have been nothing but good, I would not have engaged in. . When every man shall come to this condition of mind, I think the state will come to desolation. -- Followed by blank in manuscript. Some actings among us singly and jointly are the cause of it. I do not speak of not enlarging this representation at all, but of keeping this to the most fundamental constitution in this kingdom, that is, that no person that hath not a local and permanent interest in the kingdom should have an equal dependence in election with those that have . If God be pleased to show any of his servants that he hath made use of them as great instruments in his hand, and to show them, as also those that God hath blessed in them, that God hath blessed them, and that this hath been the greatest instrument of the ruin of sin and corruption in this Army, let us be wary and consider what we have to do in that kind. I think it doth go on mistrust, and things are thought too readily matters of reflection, that were never intended. Some arguments, presumably springing from the Puritan distrust of outward forms, resulted in removing the projected prayer-meeting from the church to the Quartermaster-General's lodgings. If we have lost the opportunity of appearing against God's enemies, let us take heed, when we be sensible of God's displeasure, that we do not run before he bids us go a second time. Now whatsoever we have declared in the Army declarations, it is no more but this. 'Tis true, that somewhat may be derived in the paper against the King, the power of the King, and somewhat against the power of the Lords; and the truth is when I shall see God going about to throw down King and Lords and property, then I shall be contented. I have been answered, ‘Now we see liberty cannot stand without destroying property.’ Liberty may be had and property not be destroyed. I do not see anybody else that makes this objection; and if nobody else be sensible of it I shall soon have done. That which he instanced was that some did desire to preserve the person of the King and persons of the Lords, so far as it was consistent with the safety or the good of the kingdom, and other persons do conceive that the preservation of the King or Lords was inconsistent with the people's safety, and that law to be paramount to all considerations. We say, with such provision for the certainty of it as in the late Act made for Triennial Parliaments; that Act tells you particularly. Now there may be inconveniencies on both hands, but not so great freedom on either as is supposed -- not the greater freedom, as I conceive, that all may have whatso-ever they have a mind to. And whether or no that hath not been the cause of this cloud that hangs over our heads, I think if we lay our hands over our hearts we may not much mistake it. I hope we do not come to contend for victory -- but let every man consider with himself that he do not go that way to take away all property. The paper says that this present Parliament is to continue a year, but will the great burden of the people be ever satisfied with papers whilst you eat and feed upon them? That man, if he pay the rent that his land is worth, and hath no advantage but what he hath by his land, is as good a man, may have as much interest, in another kingdom as here. And therefore, as their sense is, I must make this motion. Truly I think that there is not this day reigning in England a greater fruit or effect of tyranny than this very thing would produce. If they only stand as single men, their personal interest and the like is secured, and the right of being only judged by their peers, and their individual persons are not bound by any law that they do not consent to. You seem to argue only from the King's oath. The Agitators were assisted by some civilians, notably John Wildman and Maximillian Petty, who had been … You will find that we are far from being so particularly engaged to anything to the prejudice of this -- further than the notorious engagements that the world takes notice of -- that we should not concur with you that the foundation and supremacy is in the people, radically in them, and to be set down by them in their representations. Colonel Thomas Rainborough: For this the Lieutenant-General was pleased to speak of last, it was moved that day the propositions were brought in. I think we shall do well if we do make it our resolution that we do hold it forth to all powers -- Parliament or King, or whoever they are -- to let them know that these are our rights, and if we have them not we must get them the best way we can. Therefore what more is there wanting for the good or safety of the Commons of England? I would move that we may not let our spirits act too freely against them till we have thoroughly weighed the matter, and considered our own ways too. 2. Possibly the ‘other exceptions’ are those listed as disqualifying persons to be electors or elected, in the committee's fifth resolution). We do find in all presses that go forth none must be pressed that are freehold-men. and for that purpose I have prosecuted these my promises, and I have been with them -- as many as I can find ; but the most of them are dispersed, so that I lost that opportunity which I would have enjoyed. we have, as they say, gone from our engagements in our declarations in that we go in the Proposals to establish the King's rights before taking away the people's grievances. I think that either of the extremes may be urged to inconveniency; that is, that men that have no interest as to estate should have no interest as to election and that they should. Now let us consider where our difference lies. Providentially, my thoughts were cast upon one thing which I had often seen before, which yet, if prosecuted, may be the means of an happy union amongst us. Captain Edmund Rolfe: I conceive that, as we are met here, there are one or two things mainly to be prosecuted by us; that is especially unity, the preservation of unity in the Army, and so likewise to put ourselves into a capacity thereby to do good to the kingdom. There is no other foundation of right I know, of right to any one thing from another man, no foundation of that particular justice or that particular righteousness, but this general justice, and this general ground of righteousness, that we should keep covenant one with another. The Putney Debates. I profess for my part, what I see is good for the kingdom and becoming a Christian to contend for, I hope through God I shall have strength and resolution to do my part towards it. We have said, we desire first to have the constitution of the supreme authority of this kingdom reduced to that constitution which is due to the people of this kingdom, and, reducing the authority to this, we will submit to it, we will acquiesce, we will cast our share into this common bottom; and if it go ill with us at one time, it will go well at another. This I am sure: if it were never so clear in the constitution that they were good laws without it, yet this is clear -- if that were true in the original constitution of this kingdom this is clear -- that they have been sent still to him to be confirmed; as the word was to be confirmed or corroborated, Leges quas vulgus elegerit corroborandas. I shall add this: that it seems to me evident and clear that this hath been a voice from heaven to us, that we have sinned against the Lord in tampering with his enemies. You will be forced only to put characters upon electors or elected; therefore I do suppose that if there be any here that can make up a Representative to your mind, the thing is gained. The LieutenantGeneral first moved, that every one might speak their experiences as the issue of what God had given in, in answer to their prayers. And now they demand the birthright for which they fought. But if you will lay aside the most fundamental constitu- tion, which is as good, for aught you can discern, as anything you can propose -- at least it is a constitution, and I will give you consequence for consequence of good upon that constitution as you can give upon your birthright without it -- and if you merely upon pretence of a birthright, of the right of nature, which is only true as for your being, and not for your better being; if you will upon that ground pretend that this constitution, the most fundamental constitution, the thing that hath reason and equity in it, shall not stand in your way, it is the same principle to me, say I, as if but for your better satisfaction you shall take hold of anything that another man calls his own. For the later part of that noble gentleman's words, this may be said to them: whether this consideration may not be paramount to all engagements, to give the people what is their due right. Wildman: I would proceed to the things in hand. I desire as much as is possible to reverence whatsoever hath the Spirit or Image of God upon it. But withal I would not have that seasonable and good motion that hath come from Lieutenant-Colonel Goffe to be neglected, of a public seeking of God, and seeking to God, as for other things so especially for the discovery of any public deserting of God, or dishonouring of him, or declining from him, that does lie as the fault and blemish upon the Army. During the Putney Debates his arguments for universal suffrage were called 'anarchy' by Henry Ireton, who spoke for the Army Grandees. I think the poor and meaner of this kingdom (I speak as in that relation in which we are) have been the means of the preservation of this kingdom. So then your exception of your argument does not prove that by civil constitution they have no such propriety, but your argument does acknowledge that by civil constitution they have such propriety. But I shall desire to speak a word or two since I hear no man offering anything as a particular dictate from God that he would speak to us, and I should desire to draw to some conclusion of that expectation of ours. If a man be an inhabitant upon a rack rent for a year, for two years, or twenty years, you cannot think that man hath any fixed or permanent interest. I do not conceive that anything may be so nicely and precisely done but that it may admit of inconveniency. Putney Debates - YouTube. And truly, I think that half a loaf is better than none if a man be anhungry: this gift of reason without other property may seem a small thing, yet I think there is nothing that God hath given a man that any one else can take from him. There is something else that must cement us where the awkwardness of our spirits lies. 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